Community Meeting 2007-02-21-log

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[17 Feb 07 15:04] ? Notice from ChanServ (FreeNode): [#worldwind-meeting] Welcome! Agenda: http://www.worldwindcentral.com/wiki/Community_Meeting_2006-02-01
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[21 Feb 07 07:53] ? Notice from ChanServ (FreeNode): [#worldwind-meeting] Welcome! Agenda: http://www.worldwindcentral.com/wiki/Community_Meeting_2006-02-01
[21 Feb 07 11:31] > Bull_[UK] has joined
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[21 Feb 07 11:31] * Bull_[UK] * ŀThanks ChanServť
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[21 Feb 07 11:42] > _adam_gfx has joined
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[21 Feb 07 12:30] > stepman has joined
[21 Feb 07 12:32] * stepman * wrong agenda.
[21 Feb 07 12:32] * Bull_[UK] * yeah
[21 Feb 07 12:32] * Bull_[UK] * http://www.worldwindcentral.com/wiki/Community_Meeting_2007-02-21
[21 Feb 07 12:34] * Bull_[UK] * we need more bodies
[21 Feb 07 12:34] * stepman * absolutely.
[21 Feb 07 12:35] * mazop wonders if the mail will bring bodies ;)
[21 Feb 07 12:35] * Bull_[UK] * hope so
[21 Feb 07 12:35] * woozoom * wish we could drag and drop members from other rooms
[21 Feb 07 12:35] * Bull_[UK] * heh
[21 Feb 07 12:37] * withak is present, but answering students questions at the same time
[21 Feb 07 12:38] * stepman * withak: "NO, wrong, you failed, come back in five weeks."
[21 Feb 07 12:38] * Bull_[UK] * lol
[21 Feb 07 12:40] > dumdumhead has joined
[21 Feb 07 12:40] * Bull_[UK] * yay
[21 Feb 07 12:40] * dumdumhead * thanks for the email reminder
[21 Feb 07 12:40] * Bull_[UK] * a nasa body
[21 Feb 07 12:40] * dumdumhead * though, i have a telecon in 20 mins
[21 Feb 07 12:40] * Bull_[UK] * np
[21 Feb 07 12:40] > hobu has joined
[21 Feb 07 12:40] * Bull_[UK] * k lets get this party started
[21 Feb 07 12:41] * Bull_[UK] * Resuming and catching up on meetings
[21 Feb 07 12:42] * Bull_[UK] * ...
[21 Feb 07 12:42] > fiveofoh has joined
[21 Feb 07 12:42] * Bull_[UK] * next while ddh is here?
[21 Feb 07 12:42] * Bull_[UK] * Status of WorldWind development
[21 Feb 07 12:42] * Bull_[UK] * * 1.4 and 1.3.6, WWJ
[21 Feb 07 12:42] * fiveofoh * bah, /me forgot about the meeting
[21 Feb 07 12:43] * Bull_[UK] * 1.3.6 - is on hold
[21 Feb 07 12:43] * withak * 1.3.6 is probably DOA unless someone turns up to do it
[21 Feb 07 12:43] # The topic is 'http://www.worldwindcentral.com/wiki/Community_Meeting_2007-02-21' (set by fiveofoh)
[21 Feb 07 12:44] * Bull_[UK] * 1.4 - seems ok, any error reports NASA's end?
[21 Feb 07 12:45] * dumdumhead * everything is okay on this end
[21 Feb 07 12:45] * withak * there hasn't been any catostrophic bugs pointed out yet
[21 Feb 07 12:45] * withak * that would require a 1.4.1
[21 Feb 07 12:45] * Bull_[UK] * :) cool
[21 Feb 07 12:45] * fiveofoh * There were the couple things that got left out/forgotte
[21 Feb 07 12:45] * fiveofoh * n
[21 Feb 07 12:45] * Bull_[UK] hides
[21 Feb 07 12:45] * fiveofoh * Or just missed...like scripting
[21 Feb 07 12:45] * Bull_[UK] * yea
[21 Feb 07 12:46] * fiveofoh * But yeah, nothing real major
[21 Feb 07 12:47] * withak * a 1.4.5 with interface improvements like adamhill suggested would be good for next
[21 Feb 07 12:47] * withak * <_adam_gfx> the only thing I wanted peopleto think about is the a list of long standing but easily fixed quirks (like loading layers through File-Open) that we could fix
[21 Feb 07 12:47] * Bull_[UK] * yeah
[21 Feb 07 12:47] * fiveofoh * quickinstall
[21 Feb 07 12:47] * fiveofoh still has to do the megapack :(
[21 Feb 07 12:49] * Bull_[UK] * Reinvigorating development of WW.net
[21 Feb 07 12:49] * Bull_[UK] * * Keeping in sync with WWJ?
[21 Feb 07 12:49] * withak * in sync how?
[21 Feb 07 12:49] * fiveofoh * More like keeping WWJ in sync with WW.NET, isn't it?
[21 Feb 07 12:50] * woozoom * :)
[21 Feb 07 12:50] * withak * or just keeping compatibility?
[21 Feb 07 12:50] * Bull_[UK] * compatibilty I'd say
[21 Feb 07 12:50] * withak * which would be more NASA's problem
[21 Feb 07 12:50] * dumdumhead * u guys haven't seen WWJ yet right?
[21 Feb 07 12:50] * withak * with WWJ
[21 Feb 07 12:50] * Bull_[UK] * nope
[21 Feb 07 12:50] * withak * T_Servo has maybe
[21 Feb 07 12:51] * woozoom * whats the lowdown?
[21 Feb 07 12:51] * withak * a while back
[21 Feb 07 12:51] * dumdumhead * yeah, it's still not very complete feature wise, but what it has is good and fairly stable
[21 Feb 07 12:51] * dumdumhead * but yeah...it's WAY off where .Net is right now
[21 Feb 07 12:51] * fiveofoh * So basically what we've been anticipating (thanks to your hints/info)
[21 Feb 07 12:51] * dumdumhead * i don't think it'll ever catch pace
[21 Feb 07 12:51] * Bull_[UK] * will .net add-ons work in WWJ?
[21 Feb 07 12:52] * Bull_[UK] * I dont mean plugins of course
[21 Feb 07 12:53] * withak * i would hope so
[21 Feb 07 12:53] * dumdumhead * data should work
[21 Feb 07 12:53] * dumdumhead * though, it seems WWJ has preferences for data, like it prefers zipped-DDS instead of JPG
[21 Feb 07 12:53] * stepman * we should take care that it continues to work :)
[21 Feb 07 12:54] * withak wonders how it can prefer one format over another :p
[21 Feb 07 12:54] * fiveofoh thinks it should prefer the same formats as us humans
[21 Feb 07 12:55] * Bull_[UK] * Terrain manager improvements, when & how?
[21 Feb 07 12:55] * Bull_[UK] * * Is it useful to be hampered by legacy code?
[21 Feb 07 12:55] * fiveofoh * Terrain manager = ?
[21 Feb 07 12:55] * withak * probably what step is doing
[21 Feb 07 12:55] * fiveofoh * k
[21 Feb 07 12:56] * withak * with terrain detail being/not being linked to image detail
[21 Feb 07 12:56] * stepman perks up
[21 Feb 07 12:56] * stepman * yep
[21 Feb 07 12:56] * stepman * that question is kind of linked to support for legacy hardware
[21 Feb 07 12:57] > Selar has joined
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[21 Feb 07 12:57] * fiveofoh * So, "should we have a bunch of legacy code to fall back on for older cards"?
[21 Feb 07 12:57] * Bull_[UK] * yup imho
[21 Feb 07 12:57] * stepman * do we want to support DirectX7 level hardware? DX8? is there any reasonable feature set that is already  predetermined eg. by the amounts of texture memory WW uses?
[21 Feb 07 12:58] * stepman * we talked about getting some statistics on the machines people use, but i don't think that has gone anywhere so far
[21 Feb 07 12:59] * Bull_[UK] * we need basic/advanced mode, places like South Africa have old hardware
[21 Feb 07 12:59] * woozoom * that same convo mentioned alternate rendering techniques
[21 Feb 07 12:59] * withak * and places like my desk :p
[21 Feb 07 12:59] * stepman * exactly.
[21 Feb 07 13:00] * Bull_[UK] * switch to software rendering on old cards?
[21 Feb 07 13:00] * stepman * no, but perhaps limit the number of textures in use
[21 Feb 07 13:01] * woozoom * what about supressing downloads/rendering while motion is faster than x
[21 Feb 07 13:01] * stepman * or only rendering the near field, etc. i dunno
[21 Feb 07 13:02] * stepman * yeah.
[21 Feb 07 13:02] > m_k has joined
[21 Feb 07 13:02] * woozoom * I'd like that in general
[21 Feb 07 13:02] * stepman * i guess the conclusion is that WW should also try to specifically cater for (relatively) old, low end hardware
[21 Feb 07 13:03] * Bull_[UK] nods
[21 Feb 07 13:03] * fiveofoh * We already get enough guff about it not working
[21 Feb 07 13:03] * stepman * yeah
[21 Feb 07 13:03] * stepman * that makes it even more important to find out what hardware people are using.
[21 Feb 07 13:04] * stepman * i can't really figure out the problems they have if i'm running on an 8800GTX :)
[21 Feb 07 13:04] * woozoom * on a T1 :)
[21 Feb 07 13:04] * Bull_[UK] * hehe
[21 Feb 07 13:05] > rghosh1 has joined
[21 Feb 07 13:05] * Bull_[UK] * Open GL?
[21 Feb 07 13:05] * Bull_[UK] * * Is there community support for this direction?
[21 Feb 07 13:05] * woozoom * ~dreaming~
[21 Feb 07 13:05] * fiveofoh would like to see movement to OpenGL
[21 Feb 07 13:05] * withak * there is community wish in that direction
[21 Feb 07 13:05] * stepman * uh.
[21 Feb 07 13:05] * stepman * that would be a really big change.
[21 Feb 07 13:05] * withak * but a lackof willing coders i think :)
[21 Feb 07 13:06] * withak * not a small job
[21 Feb 07 13:06] * fiveofoh * Yeah, I'm clueless as to how involved/possible it is
[21 Feb 07 13:06] * Bull_[UK] * what would be involved? abstract graphics calls?
[21 Feb 07 13:06] * stepman * it basically means that all plugins break.
[21 Feb 07 13:06] * withak * at least one one person wanted to do it for SoC last year
[21 Feb 07 13:06] * woozoom * but it 'means' so much a lot of peeps will come out of the woodwork
[21 Feb 07 13:07] * Bull_[UK] * yeah plugins wouldneed changes
[21 Feb 07 13:07] * withak * it would probably end up more as a fork than as a changeover
[21 Feb 07 13:07] * stepman * yes withak
[21 Feb 07 13:08] * Bull_[UK] * but would NASA agree to those changes going in WW?
[21 Feb 07 13:08] * Bull_[UK] pokes dumdumhead
[21 Feb 07 13:09] * woozoom * it would be an excellent time to work on some of the 'issues' with plugs like central event response and WW-core events
[21 Feb 07 13:09] * withak * if they aren't going to offer up code in one direction or the other...
[21 Feb 07 13:09] * withak * worst case is the nasa logo comes off
[21 Feb 07 13:09] * woozoom * and you gain *whole* nix and mac community
[21 Feb 07 13:09] > T_Servo has joined
[21 Feb 07 13:09] * Bull_[UK] * is there no way to keep the current code and add an ogl 'switch'
[21 Feb 07 13:09] * Bull_[UK] * tom
[21 Feb 07 13:09] * stepman * if OpenGL is the way to go, i'd think the Tao framework may be worth looking into
[21 Feb 07 13:09] * Bull_[UK] * <Bull_[UK]> Open GL?
[21 Feb 07 13:09] * Bull_[UK] * [21:05:47] <stepman> uh.
[21 Feb 07 13:09] * Bull_[UK] * [21:05:46] <withak> there is community wish in that direction
[21 Feb 07 13:09] * Bull_[UK] * [21:05:43] * fiveofoh would like to see movement to OpenGL
[21 Feb 07 13:09] * Bull_[UK] * [21:05:29] <woozoom> ~dreaming~
[21 Feb 07 13:09] * Bull_[UK] * [21:05:14] <Bull_[UK]> * Is there community support for this direction?
[21 Feb 07 13:10] * Bull_[UK] * [21:05:53] <stepman> that would be a really big change.
[21 Feb 07 13:10] * Bull_[UK] * [21:05:54] <withak> but a lackof willing coders i think :)
[21 Feb 07 13:10] * T_Servo * lo
[21 Feb 07 13:10] * Bull_[UK] * [21:06:07] <withak> not a small job
[21 Feb 07 13:10] * rghosh1 * tao is already in
[21 Feb 07 13:10] * rghosh1 * for nothing more than poly tesselation
[21 Feb 07 13:10] * T_Servo * nice idea, but maybe not for a 1.4.1
[21 Feb 07 13:10] * Bull_[UK] * [21:06:17] <fiveofoh> Yeah, I'm clueless as to how involved/possible it is
[21 Feb 07 13:10] * rghosh1 * now it can be justified
[21 Feb 07 13:10] * withak * even if there was a way to switch modes, every plugin right now uses directx for any rendering changes it makes
[21 Feb 07 13:10] * stepman * ah, yeah
[21 Feb 07 13:11] * withak * so none of those plugins could work in opengl mode
[21 Feb 07 13:11] * nhv * it would require a complete rewrite to move to OpenGL  
[21 Feb 07 13:11] * withak * and new plugins would have to be able to do both
[21 Feb 07 13:11] * withak * which would end up a mess probably :)
[21 Feb 07 13:11] * Bull_[UK] * [21:06:38] <Bull_[UK]> what would be involved? abstract graphics calls?
[21 Feb 07 13:11] * Bull_[UK] * [21:06:43] <stepman> it basically means that all plugins break.
[21 Feb 07 13:12] * Bull_[UK] * [21:07:35] <stepman> yes withak
[21 Feb 07 13:12] * Bull_[UK] * [21:07:25] <withak> it would probably end up more as a fork than as a changeover
[21 Feb 07 13:12] * Bull_[UK] * [21:07:17] <Bull_[UK]> yeah plugins wouldneed changes
[21 Feb 07 13:12] * Bull_[UK] * [21:06:56] <woozoom> but it 'means' so much a lot of peeps will come out of the woodwork
[21 Feb 07 13:12] * Bull_[UK] * [21:06:46] <withak> at least one one person wanted to do it for SoC last year
[21 Feb 07 13:12] * Bull_[UK] * [21:08:25] * Bull_[UK] pokes dumdumhead
[21 Feb 07 13:12] * Bull_[UK] * [21:08:08] <Bull_[UK]> but would NASA agree to those changes going in WW?
[21 Feb 07 13:12] * fiveofoh * More things like LineFeature would reduce that though
[21 Feb 07 13:12] * withak * if someone wants to do it then more power to them
[21 Feb 07 13:12] * stepman * for me, a move to OpenGL smells more like WW 2.0 than 1.5
[21 Feb 07 13:12] * withak * yeah
[21 Feb 07 13:12] * withak * and i bet there would still be demand for directx ww
[21 Feb 07 13:13] * stepman * sure.
[21 Feb 07 13:13] * T_Servo * stepman: True, with NASA mainly focused on 1.5 and java.. we could move to a 2.0
[21 Feb 07 13:13] * stepman * most GPU drivers are better geared towards DX than GL
[21 Feb 07 13:13] * Bull_[UK] * [21:09:06] <woozoom> it would be an excellent time to work on some of the 'issues' with plugs like central event response and WW-core events
[21 Feb 07 13:13] * Bull_[UK] * [21:09:11] <withak> if they aren't going to offer up code in one direction or the other...
[21 Feb 07 13:13] * stepman * except for the 8800, where GL drivers supported DX10 features before DX10 was out :)
[21 Feb 07 13:14] * Bull_[UK] * nhv oh :(
[21 Feb 07 13:14] * Bull_[UK] * 1.4.5
[21 Feb 07 13:14] * Bull_[UK] * yep not 1.4.1
[21 Feb 07 13:14] * Bull_[UK] * quick catch up for T_Servo
[21 Feb 07 13:14] * Bull_[UK] * [21:09:31] <withak> worst case is the nasa logo comes off
[21 Feb 07 13:14] * Bull_[UK] * well I'd want ogl/dx option like games
[21 Feb 07 13:14] * Bull_[UK] * NASA cant do 2.0 though
[21 Feb 07 13:14] * dumdumhead * is OpenGL + C# really worth it?
[21 Feb 07 13:14] * woozoom * OGL would gain a lot of friends though.. and some commercial support
[21 Feb 07 13:14] * dumdumhead * considering the limited amout of resources you/we have?
[21 Feb 07 13:14] * withak * yeah
[21 Feb 07 13:14] * withak * opengl would be nice if someone willing to take it up came out of the woodwork
[21 Feb 07 13:15] * withak * but right now it is far more work than we can do
[21 Feb 07 13:15] * woozoom * SoC?
[21 Feb 07 13:15] * T_Servo * summer of code
[21 Feb 07 13:15] * withak * the person would have to stick around probably
[21 Feb 07 13:15] * T_Servo * google pays for it
[21 Feb 07 13:15] * Bull_[UK] * duno how fast
[21 Feb 07 13:15] * Bull_[UK] * mono compiles most of WW
[21 Feb 07 13:15] * stepman * i you guys can get the SoC financing, i'll do it :)
[21 Feb 07 13:15] * withak * which didn't happen last year
[21 Feb 07 13:15] * Bull_[UK] * dumdumhead - yup reources are a problem
[21 Feb 07 13:16] * stepman * *if
[21 Feb 07 13:16] * Bull_[UK] * step are you able to take part in SoC as a student?
[21 Feb 07 13:16] * stepman * hmmm
[21 Feb 07 13:16] * stepman * good question
[21 Feb 07 13:16] * woozoom * What if 5k came from somewhere else?
[21 Feb 07 13:16] * stepman * i'm planning to finish my PhD in june at the latest
[21 Feb 07 13:17] * Bull_[UK] * any interest in non-SoC money?
[21 Feb 07 13:18] * stepman * well
[21 Feb 07 13:18] * rghosh1 * irrlicht and ogre3d are cross API, perhaps too obscure or incomplete for solving the problem of
[21 Feb 07 13:18] * rghosh1 * (16:11:22) withak: and new plugins would have to be able to do both
[21 Feb 07 13:19] * stepman * honestly i don't really know what to do after my PhD
[21 Feb 07 13:20] * stepman * i have an offer to stay here, but i'm also open to other options (perhaps as a limited time postdoc)
[21 Feb 07 13:20] * stepman * but all of that probably exceeds the scope of this meeting :)
[21 Feb 07 13:21] * Bull_[UK] * but how do we feel about non-nasa 2.0? as they arent likely to be able to do it
[21 Feb 07 13:21] * T_Servo * have I missed anything in reguards to goals for 1.4.1?
[21 Feb 07 13:21] * stepman * bottom line: if there is a desperate need to move WW to GL, there will be a way to pull it off 
[21 Feb 07 13:22] * Bull_[UK] * T_Servo nah no one realy spoke before
[21 Feb 07 13:22] * T_Servo * from the emails and discussions I have had... going to GL is moot
[21 Feb 07 13:22] * T_Servo * What people want are Shapefile and KML support more than anything
[21 Feb 07 13:22] * withak * i would avoid going non-nasa as much as possible
[21 Feb 07 13:22] * Bull_[UK] * k
[21 Feb 07 13:23] * stepman * agree withak
[21 Feb 07 13:23] * stepman * i see a few things that we should try to get out as soon as possible
[21 Feb 07 13:23] * withak * barring some massive irreconcilable difference of opinion about some new feature or something
[21 Feb 07 13:24] * woozoom * 'load kml file' would be nice to have easily available to all plugins whenever KMLImporter was loaded
[21 Feb 07 13:24] * withak * there is the begininning of a load file gui
[21 Feb 07 13:24] * withak * that was commented out for 1.4 because it needed more testing
[21 Feb 07 13:24] * T_Servo * I would prefer we focus mainly on this: KML, shapefile, tile download/terrain
[21 Feb 07 13:24] * Bull_[UK] * well Randy has been getting mac/linux flame and my blog too
[21 Feb 07 13:24] * rghosh1 * haha why not just invite the flamers to the meeting
[21 Feb 07 13:24] * Bull_[UK] * hehe
[21 Feb 07 13:24] * stepman * one is seamless support for WIndows Vista. things like "turn off this and that feature" are an entry barrier that isn't necessary.
[21 Feb 07 13:24] * withak * if any of the writers of flames want to pick up the opengl slack then we will be glad to advise them :)
[21 Feb 07 13:25] * Bull_[UK] * yup
[21 Feb 07 13:25] * woozoom * and have their fork die a lonely death?
[21 Feb 07 13:25] * withak * yeah
[21 Feb 07 13:25] * fiveofoh * I'd like to try and get Quickinstall in 1.4.1 - kind of goes along with load file
[21 Feb 07 13:26] * withak * if it dies a lonely death then it will be for lack of interest
[21 Feb 07 13:27] * fiveofoh has to reboot...brb
[21 Feb 07 13:27] * Selar * i'm getting a vista desktop today
[21 Feb 07 13:27] * Selar * i can't wait to see how ww1.4 (doesn't) work on it
[21 Feb 07 13:27] < fiveofoh has disconnected (Remote closed the connection)
[21 Feb 07 13:27] * T_Servo * For 1.4.1 we really need to focus and not go roaming all over the place
[21 Feb 07 13:27] * withak * which is why a SoC project for opengl wouldn't be much good if the person wasn't willing to stick around after august
[21 Feb 07 13:27] * woozoom * or lack or perceived community support?
[21 Feb 07 13:27] * Selar * T_Servo: I agree with that
[21 Feb 07 13:28] * withak * <_adam_gfx> the only thing I wanted peopleto think about is the a list of long standing but easily fixed quirks (like loading layers through File-Open) that we could fix
[21 Feb 07 13:28] * Selar * T_Servo: it'd be nice to prioritize a list of things to tie up
[21 Feb 07 13:28] * withak * stuff like that for a 1.4.5
[21 Feb 07 13:28] * T_Servo * Selar: Yea.  And I know two main items we really need to work on, ebeough though no one really wants to.
[21 Feb 07 13:28] * stepman * well
[21 Feb 07 13:29] * T_Servo * But if we want WW to move out beyond a nice "image viewer" we need to work on stuff
[21 Feb 07 13:29] * Bull_[UK] * adam isnt here to discuss kml
[21 Feb 07 13:29] * Selar * T_Servo: what are they?
[21 Feb 07 13:29] * woozoom * isn't WW 99% non nasa now anyway?
[21 Feb 07 13:29] * T_Servo * quite a few groups want to use WW, but can't because of lack of seamless and solid support
[21 Feb 07 13:29] * T_Servo * woozoom: Nope
[21 Feb 07 13:29] * T_Servo * 1% maybe
[21 Feb 07 13:29] * woozoom * oh
[21 Feb 07 13:29] * withak * woozoom: being able to use the nasa log and have a nasa.gov url is good
[21 Feb 07 13:30] * withak * s/log/logo
[21 Feb 07 13:30] * T_Servo * Selar: Shapefille support is the hot potato
[21 Feb 07 13:30] * stepman * track 1.4.1 as a JIRA issue and dump the things we decide on for that release in there
[21 Feb 07 13:30] * woozoom * doesn't have to be binary decision. they could endorse what WW.net 'could' be. (steps off soapbox)
[21 Feb 07 13:30] < mazop has left
[21 Feb 07 13:30] * withak * and they serve the majority of the data too
[21 Feb 07 13:30] * T_Servo * stepman: Yea, will do that.  But we need a solid consensus to make sure everything and the kitchin sink isn;t added
[21 Feb 07 13:30] * stepman * and flame people who commit things that aren't relevant to one of the 1.4.1 issues :)
[21 Feb 07 13:31] * Bull_[UK] * I'd say more than 1% community for 1.4
[21 Feb 07 13:31] * Bull_[UK] * ut original code is mainly nasa
[21 Feb 07 13:32] * T_Servo * I think the two biggest items we have are kml and shapefiles
[21 Feb 07 13:32] * T_Servo * third is step's DL code
[21 Feb 07 13:32] * Selar * and easy documentation
[21 Feb 07 13:32] > fiveofoh has joined
[21 Feb 07 13:32] * T_Servo * Selar: I am working on that :)
[21 Feb 07 13:32] * stepman maintains that Vista support is also a big ticket
[21 Feb 07 13:32] * Selar * T_Servo: and I will help you :)
[21 Feb 07 13:33] * T_Servo * stepman: True, but still waiting to hear back from MS on a better fix
[21 Feb 07 13:33] * withak * what is next on agenda?
[21 Feb 07 13:33] * Bull_[UK] * ok so who is interested on doing shp improvements?
[21 Feb 07 13:34] * withak * i tried making them vectors but it wasn't much more efficient that the tiles in memory :)
[21 Feb 07 13:34] * Bull_[UK] * we have an agenda? oh yeah ;)
[21 Feb 07 13:35] * Bull_[UK] * T_Servo what improvements are wanted?
[21 Feb 07 13:35] * T_Servo * if we can get KML and Spafeiles done as the top items, we will make a lot of people happy
[21 Feb 07 13:36] * T_Servo * http://rafb.net/p/ABmqeD44.html
[21 Feb 07 13:36] * T_Servo * got this today
[21 Feb 07 13:36] * Bull_[UK] * yeah kml is easyish, but shp? speed and....
[21 Feb 07 13:37] * T_Servo * good idea of what most people would like to have
[21 Feb 07 13:37] * rghosh1 * http://www.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?ProjectName=SharpMap has a shape file loader
[21 Feb 07 13:37] * rghosh1 * NetTopologySuite uses it too
[21 Feb 07 13:38] * rghosh1 * performance issues might be resolved by using a QuadTileSet instead of a list for renderable objects, also available in NTS
[21 Feb 07 13:38] * rghosh1 * Shit that's QuadTree not QuadTileSet
[21 Feb 07 13:38] > Llynix has joined
[21 Feb 07 13:38] ! ChanServ sets mode +o Llynix
[21 Feb 07 13:38] > fiveofo1 has joined
[21 Feb 07 13:39] * withak * all the stuff that guy in T_Servo's email wants can be done already
[21 Feb 07 13:39] * withak * he just wants someone to gather all the information/data in one place for him
[21 Feb 07 13:40] * T_Servo * ok
[21 Feb 07 13:40] * withak * he should pay someone to set him up a wms
[21 Feb 07 13:40] * stepman * that it can be done doesn't mean it is easy enough for non-experts
[21 Feb 07 13:40] * woozoom * he also mentions functionality that would make WW a lot more useable to the general public (private also:)  
[21 Feb 07 13:41] * Bull_[UK] * yup
[21 Feb 07 13:41] * stepman * he mentions biologists and guys like that using the tool. 
[21 Feb 07 13:41] * woozoom * needs it in unconnected locations so no WMS.
[21 Feb 07 13:41] * stepman * i don't see a forester setting up a WMS.
[21 Feb 07 13:42] * withak * a local wms
[21 Feb 07 13:42] * woozoom * also, edu applications need cross platform.
[21 Feb 07 13:42] * withak * much easier to style things that way
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[21 Feb 07 13:42] * withak * compared to relying on WW to do it
[21 Feb 07 13:42] * woozoom * WMS plugin :) ?
[21 Feb 07 13:42] * withak * the only thing he mentions that you can't do yet is retrieve feature info
[21 Feb 07 13:42] * stepman * the implementation details don't matter, but it must present itself to the user as one simple to use package
[21 Feb 07 13:43] * Bull_[UK] * shp->wms plugin
[21 Feb 07 13:43] * Selar * it would be nice to get a set of objectives from us and our users that we can prioritize our development around
[21 Feb 07 13:43] * stepman * if that means setting up a local WMS, fine.
[21 Feb 07 13:43] * withak * styling vector maps is something that there are many other tools for
[21 Feb 07 13:43] * T_Servo * a hook into qgis
[21 Feb 07 13:43] * Bull_[UK] * ww could auto set up a mini-wms from a plugin
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[21 Feb 07 13:44] * stepman * sounds like a 1.5 or 2.0 project :)
[21 Feb 07 13:44] * Bull_[UK] * hehe
[21 Feb 07 13:44] * Bull_[UK] * or SoC
[21 Feb 07 13:44] * stepman * or that, yes.
[21 Feb 07 13:45] * woozoom * WW 2.0 could reallybe 'all that'
[21 Feb 07 13:45] * stepman * woozoom: if that's the goal, it is even more important to manage (human) resources very well
[21 Feb 07 13:45] * withak * it also seems like that guy waiting on an OS project to provide him with a tool he needs may no be the best business decision :)
[21 Feb 07 13:46] * Selar * it'd also be neat to separate the 2.0 feature set from the 1.4.x's
[21 Feb 07 13:46] * stepman * you need a few guys working exclusively on 2.0, and enough others to keep the rest of the project going
[21 Feb 07 13:46] * woozoom * from the mail: I've dumped about $100,000 of my own money into what we have built to date
[21 Feb 07 13:46] * withak * yeah, 2.0 probably wouldn't be possible unless someone (or more) working full-tim turned up
[21 Feb 07 13:47] * woozoom * what would what has been mentioned so far cost? vs opening an entirely new industry (.edu and commercial applications plus mac crowd)
[21 Feb 07 13:49] * stepman * what do you mean
[21 Feb 07 13:49] * stepman * the things we've been talking about?
[21 Feb 07 13:49] * stepman * including OGL?
[21 Feb 07 13:50] * withak * rghosh1: shapefiles are all rasterized and tiled right now
[21 Feb 07 13:50] * withak * tiled in memory
[21 Feb 07 13:50] * woozoom * seems like we're talking nickels and dimes when real utility and need is just sitting around looking at GE or waiting on old promises.
[21 Feb 07 13:50] * withak * from WW's point of view a shapefile layer is a QTS
[21 Feb 07 13:51] * rghosh1 * ah but you said you had worked on a vector version?
[21 Feb 07 13:51] * withak * that was just a plugin that turned out to be about as slow as the rasterized way of loading
[21 Feb 07 13:51] * woozoom * prettier?
[21 Feb 07 13:51] * withak * woozoom: real utility and need takes time and effort
[21 Feb 07 13:52] * woozoom * i know..
[21 Feb 07 13:52] * rghosh1 * withak: so for that one,
[21 Feb 07 13:52] * rghosh1 * - could a quadtree have improved performance?
[21 Feb 07 13:52] * rghosh1 * - was a simplified vector image displayed when the view was zoomed out,
[21 Feb 07 13:52] * stepman * it's hard to render a lot of vectors efficiently.
[21 Feb 07 13:52] * rghosh1 * stepman: hence the simplified vector image, available in some data sets
[21 Feb 07 13:53] * withak * rghosh1: i don'tk now, someone who knows more than that stuff than me would have to try
[21 Feb 07 13:53] * rghosh1 * cool just asking
[21 Feb 07 13:54] * stepman * quadtree would help cull things you don't need to render
[21 Feb 07 13:55] * rghosh1 * i'm not sure what if any library has a usable automated vector "simplifier"
[21 Feb 07 13:55] * stepman * but the most important thing would be to have things resident on the GPU and render as much as possible in one swoop
[21 Feb 07 13:56] * rghosh1 * stepman: makes sense, i guess that's why some datasets provide reduced or simplified "aliases" for the data
[21 Feb 07 13:56] * withak * so what else is on the agenda?
[21 Feb 07 13:56] * rghosh1 * i'm thinking of some boundary data set, can't remember which one, as an example
[21 Feb 07 13:56] * withak * where is Bull_[UK]'s gavel?
[21 Feb 07 13:56] * rghosh1 * lol
[21 Feb 07 13:57] * Bull_[UK] * US-USDA/NAIP data in WW
[21 Feb 07 13:58] * Selar * hmm, in a way, i think woozoom is right.  details for shp can be worked out later, too :)
[21 Feb 07 13:58] * Selar * who put that on there, Bull_[UK]?
[21 Feb 07 13:58] * Bull_[UK] * no idea
[21 Feb 07 13:58] * Bull_[UK] * lol
[21 Feb 07 13:58] * Selar * was that from Patrick's request to help wildlantint?
[21 Feb 07 13:58] * woozoom * 1M is good anywhere it came from
[21 Feb 07 13:58] * Bull_[UK] * but FEF still cant process until 45 gets back
[21 Feb 07 13:59] * Selar * since my "day job" is at the USDA, i may be able to help out with that
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[21 Feb 07 13:59] * Bull_[UK] * cool
[21 Feb 07 13:59] * Selar * but my opinion on it is that it's an "ease of data importing" issue which goes along with refinements to 1.4.x
[21 Feb 07 13:59] * Bull_[UK] * yeah
[21 Feb 07 14:00] * withak * the user isn't going to ever have to handle a data set that large
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[21 Feb 07 14:00] * Selar * for that specific user, i don't think so, either, wi	
[21 Feb 07 14:00] * Selar * s/wi/withak
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[21 Feb 07 14:01] * Selar * (he's got access to nevada naip by county, approx 2gb files)
[21 Feb 07 14:02] * Selar * i'm not really sure what to say about that other than "more documentation"
[21 Feb 07 14:02] * woozoom * each!
[21 Feb 07 14:02] * woozoom * Idaho too
[21 Feb 07 14:02] * nhv * fyi  in ossimPlanet_QT you can drag and drop most any georefed image and shapefiles GML etc  and it will appear on the Globe
[21 Feb 07 14:02] * nhv * I think WW could use a similar feature
[21 Feb 07 14:02] * woozoom * OSSIMPlanet plugin!
[21 Feb 07 14:02] * nhv * it is not that hard to do
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[21 Feb 07 14:03] * woozoom * heh
[21 Feb 07 14:03] * withak * that's what i want the file -> Load dialog to do
[21 Feb 07 14:03] * Selar * that'd be a great feature
[21 Feb 07 14:03] * Selar * someone's making a list, right? :)
[21 Feb 07 14:03] * withak * http://www.worldwindcentral.com/wiki/World_Wind_1.4.1_Notes
[21 Feb 07 14:04] * withak * already did :)
[21 Feb 07 14:04] * withak * towards the bottom
[21 Feb 07 14:04] * nhv * well one could put a WW like frontend on top of libOssimPlanet  :-)
[21 Feb 07 14:04] * nhv * we are currently trying to come up with an API
[21 Feb 07 14:04] * Bull_[UK] * d&d is easy, shock did it for kml iirc
[21 Feb 07 14:05] * Selar * nice, withak
[21 Feb 07 14:05] * Bull_[UK] * cool
[21 Feb 07 14:05] * nhv * if we had a document of desired features in the API  we might implement them
[21 Feb 07 14:05] * woozoom * wow_ eyes glazed over... nvh has blown my mind.
[21 Feb 07 14:05] * Bull_[UK] * yeah
[21 Feb 07 14:05] * withak * yeah d&d isn't a problem once the actual file loading code is there
[21 Feb 07 14:06] * nhv * Planet will communicate to the 'outside world'  thru a socket interface
[21 Feb 07 14:06] * nhv * so it is very loosley coupled to the front end
[21 Feb 07 14:07] * Selar * bah, forgot my wiki pwd
[21 Feb 07 14:07] * Bull_[UK] * so ogl could be ww ui on toof ossim
[21 Feb 07 14:07] * Bull_[UK] * :)
[21 Feb 07 14:07] * Bull_[UK] * top of*
[21 Feb 07 14:08] * nhv * UI could be anything  C#  JavaScript  Python C  etc
[21 Feb 07 14:08] * woozoom * ~pupils regaining shape~ thanks Bull.
[21 Feb 07 14:08] * woozoom * nhv: and plug support?
[21 Feb 07 14:09] * Bull_[UK] is out of his depth but likes the idea of using ossim stuff
[21 Feb 07 14:09] * nhv * we have our own plugin system
[21 Feb 07 14:09] * nhv * but yes   plugin architecture is core to OSSIM
[21 Feb 07 14:10] * nhv * sensor models, data types, algorithms etc can all be pugins
[21 Feb 07 14:10] * withak * make a .net control out of it and it can just replace worldwindow in the gui :)
[21 Feb 07 14:11] * nhv * or just pass an OGL surface to OSSIM for it to draw into
[21 Feb 07 14:11] * nhv * from any app
[21 Feb 07 14:11] * rghosh1 * i've done that with tao in .NET before, works fine
[21 Feb 07 14:12] * nhv * cool
[21 Feb 07 14:15] * stepman * *ping*
[21 Feb 07 14:16] * stepman * i suppose the silence means that there isn't anything important left on the agenda :)
[21 Feb 07 14:16] * withak * we can't leave until Bull_[UK] bangs the gavel
[21 Feb 07 14:16] * woozoom * wiping sweat from palms. instant OGL. pretty appealing.
[21 Feb 07 14:16] * Bull_[UK] * lol
[21 Feb 07 14:16] * Bull_[UK] bangs
[21 Feb 07 14:17] * withak * refreshments in the hallway
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[21 Feb 07 14:19] * stepman * lies! nobody in #worldwind-hallway!
[21 Feb 07 14:19] * stepman goes home, without refreshments :(
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[21 Feb 07 14:23] * woozoom * outie!
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