Community Meeting 2007-02-21-log

[17 Feb 07 15:04] ? Notice from ChanServ (FreeNode): [#worldwind-meeting] Welcome! Agenda: http://www.worldwindcentral.com/wiki/Community_Meeting_2006-02-01 [17 Feb 07 15:04] - ChanServ disables 'Op' status for woozoom [17 Feb 07 15:04] ? Notice from ChanServ (FreeNode): You do not have channel operator access to [#worldwind-meeting] [17 Feb 07 15:04] ! ChanServ sets mode -s [17 Feb 07 15:04] + irc.freenode.net enables 'Op' status for ChanServ [17 Feb 07 15:04] > ChanServ has joined [17 Feb 07 15:04] ! [freenode-info] if you need to send private messages, please register: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg: #worldwind-meeting [21 Feb 07 07:53] ? Notice from ChanServ (FreeNode): [#worldwind-meeting] Welcome! Agenda: http://www.worldwindcentral.com/wiki/Community_Meeting_2006-02-01 [21 Feb 07 11:31] > Bull_[UK] has joined [21 Feb 07 11:31] ! ChanServ sets mode +o Bull_[UK] [21 Feb 07 11:31] * Bull_[UK] * ŤThanks ChanServť [21 Feb 07 11:31] ! Bull_[UK] sets mode -o Bull_[UK] [21 Feb 07 11:42] > _adam_gfx has joined [21 Feb 07 12:26] > withak has joined [21 Feb 07 12:29] > mazop has joined [21 Feb 07 12:30] > stepman has joined [21 Feb 07 12:32] * stepman * wrong agenda. [21 Feb 07 12:32] * Bull_[UK] * yeah [21 Feb 07 12:32] * Bull_[UK] * http://www.worldwindcentral.com/wiki/Community_Meeting_2007-02-21 [21 Feb 07 12:34] * Bull_[UK] * we need more bodies [21 Feb 07 12:34] * stepman * absolutely. [21 Feb 07 12:35] * mazop wonders if the mail will bring bodies ;) [21 Feb 07 12:35] * Bull_[UK] * hope so [21 Feb 07 12:35] * woozoom * wish we could drag and drop members from other rooms [21 Feb 07 12:35] * Bull_[UK] * heh [21 Feb 07 12:37] * withak is present, but answering students questions at the same time [21 Feb 07 12:38] * stepman * withak: "NO, wrong, you failed, come back in five weeks." [21 Feb 07 12:38] * Bull_[UK] * lol [21 Feb 07 12:40] > dumdumhead has joined [21 Feb 07 12:40] * Bull_[UK] * yay [21 Feb 07 12:40] * dumdumhead * thanks for the email reminder [21 Feb 07 12:40] * Bull_[UK] * a nasa body [21 Feb 07 12:40] * dumdumhead * though, i have a telecon in 20 mins [21 Feb 07 12:40] * Bull_[UK] * np [21 Feb 07 12:40] > hobu has joined [21 Feb 07 12:40] * Bull_[UK] * k lets get this party started [21 Feb 07 12:41] * Bull_[UK] * Resuming and catching up on meetings [21 Feb 07 12:42] * Bull_[UK] * ... [21 Feb 07 12:42] > fiveofoh has joined [21 Feb 07 12:42] * Bull_[UK] * next while ddh is here? [21 Feb 07 12:42] * Bull_[UK] * Status of WorldWind development [21 Feb 07 12:42] * Bull_[UK] * * 1.4 and 1.3.6, WWJ [21 Feb 07 12:42] * fiveofoh * bah, /me forgot about the meeting [21 Feb 07 12:43] * Bull_[UK] * 1.3.6 - is on hold [21 Feb 07 12:43] * withak * 1.3.6 is probably DOA unless someone turns up to do it [21 Feb 07 12:43] # The topic is 'http://www.worldwindcentral.com/wiki/Community_Meeting_2007-02-21' (set by fiveofoh) [21 Feb 07 12:44] * Bull_[UK] * 1.4 - seems ok, any error reports NASA's end? [21 Feb 07 12:45] * dumdumhead * everything is okay on this end [21 Feb 07 12:45] * withak * there hasn't been any catostrophic bugs pointed out yet [21 Feb 07 12:45] * withak * that would require a 1.4.1 [21 Feb 07 12:45] * Bull_[UK] * :) cool [21 Feb 07 12:45] * fiveofoh * There were the couple things that got left out/forgotte [21 Feb 07 12:45] * fiveofoh * n [21 Feb 07 12:45] * Bull_[UK] hides [21 Feb 07 12:45] * fiveofoh * Or just missed...like scripting [21 Feb 07 12:45] * Bull_[UK] * yea [21 Feb 07 12:46] * fiveofoh * But yeah, nothing real major [21 Feb 07 12:47] * withak * a 1.4.5 with interface improvements like adamhill suggested would be good for next [21 Feb 07 12:47] * withak * <_adam_gfx> the only thing I wanted peopleto think about is the a list of long standing but easily fixed quirks (like loading layers through File-Open) that we could fix [21 Feb 07 12:47] * Bull_[UK] * yeah [21 Feb 07 12:47] * fiveofoh * quickinstall [21 Feb 07 12:47] * fiveofoh still has to do the megapack :( [21 Feb 07 12:49] * Bull_[UK] * Reinvigorating development of WW.net [21 Feb 07 12:49] * Bull_[UK] * * Keeping in sync with WWJ? [21 Feb 07 12:49] * withak * in sync how? [21 Feb 07 12:49] * fiveofoh * More like keeping WWJ in sync with WW.NET, isn't it? [21 Feb 07 12:50] * woozoom * :) [21 Feb 07 12:50] * withak * or just keeping compatibility? [21 Feb 07 12:50] * Bull_[UK] * compatibilty I'd say [21 Feb 07 12:50] * withak * which would be more NASA's problem [21 Feb 07 12:50] * dumdumhead * u guys haven't seen WWJ yet right? [21 Feb 07 12:50] * withak * with WWJ [21 Feb 07 12:50] * Bull_[UK] * nope [21 Feb 07 12:50] * withak * T_Servo has maybe [21 Feb 07 12:51] * woozoom * whats the lowdown? [21 Feb 07 12:51] * withak * a while back [21 Feb 07 12:51] * dumdumhead * yeah, it's still not very complete feature wise, but what it has is good and fairly stable [21 Feb 07 12:51] * dumdumhead * but yeah...it's WAY off where .Net is right now [21 Feb 07 12:51] * fiveofoh * So basically what we've been anticipating (thanks to your hints/info) [21 Feb 07 12:51] * dumdumhead * i don't think it'll ever catch pace [21 Feb 07 12:51] * Bull_[UK] * will .net add-ons work in WWJ? [21 Feb 07 12:52] * Bull_[UK] * I dont mean plugins of course [21 Feb 07 12:53] * withak * i would hope so [21 Feb 07 12:53] * dumdumhead * data should work [21 Feb 07 12:53] * dumdumhead * though, it seems WWJ has preferences for data, like it prefers zipped-DDS instead of JPG [21 Feb 07 12:53] * stepman * we should take care that it continues to work :) [21 Feb 07 12:54] * withak wonders how it can prefer one format over another :p [21 Feb 07 12:54] * fiveofoh thinks it should prefer the same formats as us humans [21 Feb 07 12:55] * Bull_[UK] * Terrain manager improvements, when & how? [21 Feb 07 12:55] * Bull_[UK] * * Is it useful to be hampered by legacy code? [21 Feb 07 12:55] * fiveofoh * Terrain manager = ? [21 Feb 07 12:55] * withak * probably what step is doing [21 Feb 07 12:55] * fiveofoh * k [21 Feb 07 12:56] * withak * with terrain detail being/not being linked to image detail [21 Feb 07 12:56] * stepman perks up [21 Feb 07 12:56] * stepman * yep [21 Feb 07 12:56] * stepman * that question is kind of linked to support for legacy hardware [21 Feb 07 12:57] > Selar has joined [21 Feb 07 12:57] > nhv has joined [21 Feb 07 12:57] * fiveofoh * So, "should we have a bunch of legacy code to fall back on for older cards"? [21 Feb 07 12:57] * Bull_[UK] * yup imho [21 Feb 07 12:57] * stepman * do we want to support DirectX7 level hardware? DX8? is there any reasonable feature set that is already predetermined eg. by the amounts of texture memory WW uses? [21 Feb 07 12:58] * stepman * we talked about getting some statistics on the machines people use, but i don't think that has gone anywhere so far [21 Feb 07 12:59] * Bull_[UK] * we need basic/advanced mode, places like South Africa have old hardware [21 Feb 07 12:59] * woozoom * that same convo mentioned alternate rendering techniques [21 Feb 07 12:59] * withak * and places like my desk :p [21 Feb 07 12:59] * stepman * exactly. [21 Feb 07 13:00] * Bull_[UK] * switch to software rendering on old cards? [21 Feb 07 13:00] * stepman * no, but perhaps limit the number of textures in use [21 Feb 07 13:01] * woozoom * what about supressing downloads/rendering while motion is faster than x [21 Feb 07 13:01] * stepman * or only rendering the near field, etc. i dunno [21 Feb 07 13:02] * stepman * yeah. [21 Feb 07 13:02] > m_k has joined [21 Feb 07 13:02] * woozoom * I'd like that in general [21 Feb 07 13:02] * stepman * i guess the conclusion is that WW should also try to specifically cater for (relatively) old, low end hardware [21 Feb 07 13:03] * Bull_[UK] nods [21 Feb 07 13:03] * fiveofoh * We already get enough guff about it not working [21 Feb 07 13:03] * stepman * yeah [21 Feb 07 13:03] * stepman * that makes it even more important to find out what hardware people are using. [21 Feb 07 13:04] * stepman * i can't really figure out the problems they have if i'm running on an 8800GTX :) [21 Feb 07 13:04] * woozoom * on a T1 :) [21 Feb 07 13:04] * Bull_[UK] * hehe [21 Feb 07 13:05] > rghosh1 has joined [21 Feb 07 13:05] * Bull_[UK] * Open GL? [21 Feb 07 13:05] * Bull_[UK] * * Is there community support for this direction? [21 Feb 07 13:05] * woozoom * ~dreaming~ [21 Feb 07 13:05] * fiveofoh would like to see movement to OpenGL [21 Feb 07 13:05] * withak * there is community wish in that direction [21 Feb 07 13:05] * stepman * uh. [21 Feb 07 13:05] * stepman * that would be a really big change. [21 Feb 07 13:05] * withak * but a lackof willing coders i think :) [21 Feb 07 13:06] * withak * not a small job [21 Feb 07 13:06] * fiveofoh * Yeah, I'm clueless as to how involved/possible it is [21 Feb 07 13:06] * Bull_[UK] * what would be involved? abstract graphics calls? [21 Feb 07 13:06] * stepman * it basically means that all plugins break. [21 Feb 07 13:06] * withak * at least one one person wanted to do it for SoC last year [21 Feb 07 13:06] * woozoom * but it 'means' so much a lot of peeps will come out of the woodwork [21 Feb 07 13:07] * Bull_[UK] * yeah plugins wouldneed changes [21 Feb 07 13:07] * withak * it would probably end up more as a fork than as a changeover [21 Feb 07 13:07] * stepman * yes withak [21 Feb 07 13:08] * Bull_[UK] * but would NASA agree to those changes going in WW? [21 Feb 07 13:08] * Bull_[UK] pokes dumdumhead [21 Feb 07 13:09] * woozoom * it would be an excellent time to work on some of the 'issues' with plugs like central event response and WW-core events [21 Feb 07 13:09] * withak * if they aren't going to offer up code in one direction or the other... [21 Feb 07 13:09] * withak * worst case is the nasa logo comes off [21 Feb 07 13:09] * woozoom * and you gain *whole* nix and mac community [21 Feb 07 13:09] > T_Servo has joined [21 Feb 07 13:09] * Bull_[UK] * is there no way to keep the current code and add an ogl 'switch' [21 Feb 07 13:09] * Bull_[UK] * tom [21 Feb 07 13:09] * stepman * if OpenGL is the way to go, i'd think the Tao framework may be worth looking into [21 Feb 07 13:09] * Bull_[UK] *  Open GL? [21 Feb 07 13:09] * Bull_[UK] * [21:05:47] uh. [21 Feb 07 13:09] * Bull_[UK] * [21:05:46] there is community wish in that direction [21 Feb 07 13:09] * Bull_[UK] * [21:05:43] * fiveofoh would like to see movement to OpenGL [21 Feb 07 13:09] * Bull_[UK] * [21:05:29] ~dreaming~ [21 Feb 07 13:09] * Bull_[UK] * [21:05:14]  * Is there community support for this direction? [21 Feb 07 13:10] * Bull_[UK] * [21:05:53] that would be a really big change. [21 Feb 07 13:10] * Bull_[UK] * [21:05:54] but a lackof willing coders i think :) [21 Feb 07 13:10] * T_Servo * lo [21 Feb 07 13:10] * Bull_[UK] * [21:06:07] not a small job [21 Feb 07 13:10] * rghosh1 * tao is already in [21 Feb 07 13:10] * rghosh1 * for nothing more than poly tesselation [21 Feb 07 13:10] * T_Servo * nice idea, but maybe not for a 1.4.1 [21 Feb 07 13:10] * Bull_[UK] * [21:06:17] Yeah, I'm clueless as to how involved/possible it is [21 Feb 07 13:10] * rghosh1 * now it can be justified [21 Feb 07 13:10] * withak * even if there was a way to switch modes, every plugin right now uses directx for any rendering changes it makes [21 Feb 07 13:10] * stepman * ah, yeah [21 Feb 07 13:11] * withak * so none of those plugins could work in opengl mode [21 Feb 07 13:11] * nhv * it would require a complete rewrite to move to OpenGL [21 Feb 07 13:11] * withak * and new plugins would have to be able to do both [21 Feb 07 13:11] * withak * which would end up a mess probably :) [21 Feb 07 13:11] * Bull_[UK] * [21:06:38]  what would be involved? abstract graphics calls? [21 Feb 07 13:11] * Bull_[UK] * [21:06:43] it basically means that all plugins break. [21 Feb 07 13:12] * Bull_[UK] * [21:07:35] yes withak [21 Feb 07 13:12] * Bull_[UK] * [21:07:25] it would probably end up more as a fork than as a changeover [21 Feb 07 13:12] * Bull_[UK] * [21:07:17]  yeah plugins wouldneed changes [21 Feb 07 13:12] * Bull_[UK] * [21:06:56] but it 'means' so much a lot of peeps will come out of the woodwork [21 Feb 07 13:12] * Bull_[UK] * [21:06:46] at least one one person wanted to do it for SoC last year [21 Feb 07 13:12] * Bull_[UK] * [21:08:25] * Bull_[UK] pokes dumdumhead [21 Feb 07 13:12] * Bull_[UK] * [21:08:08]  but would NASA agree to those changes going in WW? [21 Feb 07 13:12] * fiveofoh * More things like LineFeature would reduce that though [21 Feb 07 13:12] * withak * if someone wants to do it then more power to them [21 Feb 07 13:12] * stepman * for me, a move to OpenGL smells more like WW 2.0 than 1.5 [21 Feb 07 13:12] * withak * yeah [21 Feb 07 13:12] * withak * and i bet there would still be demand for directx ww [21 Feb 07 13:13] * stepman * sure. [21 Feb 07 13:13] * T_Servo * stepman: True, with NASA mainly focused on 1.5 and java.. we could move to a 2.0 [21 Feb 07 13:13] * stepman * most GPU drivers are better geared towards DX than GL [21 Feb 07 13:13] * Bull_[UK] * [21:09:06] it would be an excellent time to work on some of the 'issues' with plugs like central event response and WW-core events [21 Feb 07 13:13] * Bull_[UK] * [21:09:11] if they aren't going to offer up code in one direction or the other... [21 Feb 07 13:13] * stepman * except for the 8800, where GL drivers supported DX10 features before DX10 was out :) [21 Feb 07 13:14] * Bull_[UK] * nhv oh :( [21 Feb 07 13:14] * Bull_[UK] * 1.4.5 [21 Feb 07 13:14] * Bull_[UK] * yep not 1.4.1 [21 Feb 07 13:14] * Bull_[UK] * quick catch up for T_Servo [21 Feb 07 13:14] * Bull_[UK] * [21:09:31] worst case is the nasa logo comes off [21 Feb 07 13:14] * Bull_[UK] * well I'd want ogl/dx option like games [21 Feb 07 13:14] * Bull_[UK] * NASA cant do 2.0 though [21 Feb 07 13:14] * dumdumhead * is OpenGL + C# really worth it? [21 Feb 07 13:14] * woozoom * OGL would gain a lot of friends though.. and some commercial support [21 Feb 07 13:14] * dumdumhead * considering the limited amout of resources you/we have? [21 Feb 07 13:14] * withak * yeah [21 Feb 07 13:14] * withak * opengl would be nice if someone willing to take it up came out of the woodwork [21 Feb 07 13:15] * withak * but right now it is far more work than we can do [21 Feb 07 13:15] * woozoom * SoC? [21 Feb 07 13:15] * T_Servo * summer of code [21 Feb 07 13:15] * withak * the person would have to stick around probably [21 Feb 07 13:15] * T_Servo * google pays for it [21 Feb 07 13:15] * Bull_[UK] * duno how fast [21 Feb 07 13:15] * Bull_[UK] * mono compiles most of WW [21 Feb 07 13:15] * stepman * i you guys can get the SoC financing, i'll do it :) [21 Feb 07 13:15] * withak * which didn't happen last year [21 Feb 07 13:15] * Bull_[UK] * dumdumhead - yup reources are a problem [21 Feb 07 13:16] * stepman * *if [21 Feb 07 13:16] * Bull_[UK] * step are you able to take part in SoC as a student? [21 Feb 07 13:16] * stepman * hmmm [21 Feb 07 13:16] * stepman * good question [21 Feb 07 13:16] * woozoom * What if 5k came from somewhere else? [21 Feb 07 13:16] * stepman * i'm planning to finish my PhD in june at the latest [21 Feb 07 13:17] * Bull_[UK] * any interest in non-SoC money? [21 Feb 07 13:18] * stepman * well [21 Feb 07 13:18] * rghosh1 * irrlicht and ogre3d are cross API, perhaps too obscure or incomplete for solving the problem of [21 Feb 07 13:18] * rghosh1 * (16:11:22) withak: and new plugins would have to be able to do both [21 Feb 07 13:19] * stepman * honestly i don't really know what to do after my PhD [21 Feb 07 13:20] * stepman * i have an offer to stay here, but i'm also open to other options (perhaps as a limited time postdoc) [21 Feb 07 13:20] * stepman * but all of that probably exceeds the scope of this meeting :) [21 Feb 07 13:21] * Bull_[UK] * but how do we feel about non-nasa 2.0? as they arent likely to be able to do it [21 Feb 07 13:21] * T_Servo * have I missed anything in reguards to goals for 1.4.1? [21 Feb 07 13:21] * stepman * bottom line: if there is a desperate need to move WW to GL, there will be a way to pull it off [21 Feb 07 13:22] * Bull_[UK] * T_Servo nah no one realy spoke before [21 Feb 07 13:22] * T_Servo * from the emails and discussions I have had... going to GL is moot [21 Feb 07 13:22] * T_Servo * What people want are Shapefile and KML support more than anything [21 Feb 07 13:22] * withak * i would avoid going non-nasa as much as possible [21 Feb 07 13:22] * Bull_[UK] * k [21 Feb 07 13:23] * stepman * agree withak [21 Feb 07 13:23] * stepman * i see a few things that we should try to get out as soon as possible [21 Feb 07 13:23] * withak * barring some massive irreconcilable difference of opinion about some new feature or something [21 Feb 07 13:24] * woozoom * 'load kml file' would be nice to have easily available to all plugins whenever KMLImporter was loaded [21 Feb 07 13:24] * withak * there is the begininning of a load file gui [21 Feb 07 13:24] * withak * that was commented out for 1.4 because it needed more testing [21 Feb 07 13:24] * T_Servo * I would prefer we focus mainly on this: KML, shapefile, tile download/terrain [21 Feb 07 13:24] * Bull_[UK] * well Randy has been getting mac/linux flame and my blog too [21 Feb 07 13:24] * rghosh1 * haha why not just invite the flamers to the meeting [21 Feb 07 13:24] * Bull_[UK] * hehe [21 Feb 07 13:24] * stepman * one is seamless support for WIndows Vista. things like "turn off this and that feature" are an entry barrier that isn't necessary. [21 Feb 07 13:24] * withak * if any of the writers of flames want to pick up the opengl slack then we will be glad to advise them :) [21 Feb 07 13:25] * Bull_[UK] * yup [21 Feb 07 13:25] * woozoom * and have their fork die a lonely death? [21 Feb 07 13:25] * withak * yeah [21 Feb 07 13:25] * fiveofoh * I'd like to try and get Quickinstall in 1.4.1 - kind of goes along with load file [21 Feb 07 13:26] * withak * if it dies a lonely death then it will be for lack of interest [21 Feb 07 13:27] * fiveofoh has to reboot...brb [21 Feb 07 13:27] * Selar * i'm getting a vista desktop today [21 Feb 07 13:27] * Selar * i can't wait to see how ww1.4 (doesn't) work on it [21 Feb 07 13:27] < fiveofoh has disconnected (Remote closed the connection) [21 Feb 07 13:27] * T_Servo * For 1.4.1 we really need to focus and not go roaming all over the place [21 Feb 07 13:27] * withak * which is why a SoC project for opengl wouldn't be much good if the person wasn't willing to stick around after august [21 Feb 07 13:27] * woozoom * or lack or perceived community support? [21 Feb 07 13:27] * Selar * T_Servo: I agree with that [21 Feb 07 13:28] * withak * <_adam_gfx> the only thing I wanted peopleto think about is the a list of long standing but easily fixed quirks (like loading layers through File-Open) that we could fix [21 Feb 07 13:28] * Selar * T_Servo: it'd be nice to prioritize a list of things to tie up [21 Feb 07 13:28] * withak * stuff like that for a 1.4.5 [21 Feb 07 13:28] * T_Servo * Selar: Yea. And I know two main items we really need to work on, ebeough though no one really wants to. [21 Feb 07 13:28] * stepman * well [21 Feb 07 13:29] * T_Servo * But if we want WW to move out beyond a nice "image viewer" we need to work on stuff [21 Feb 07 13:29] * Bull_[UK] * adam isnt here to discuss kml [21 Feb 07 13:29] * Selar * T_Servo: what are they? [21 Feb 07 13:29] * woozoom * isn't WW 99% non nasa now anyway? [21 Feb 07 13:29] * T_Servo * quite a few groups want to use WW, but can't because of lack of seamless and solid support [21 Feb 07 13:29] * T_Servo * woozoom: Nope [21 Feb 07 13:29] * T_Servo * 1% maybe [21 Feb 07 13:29] * woozoom * oh [21 Feb 07 13:29] * withak * woozoom: being able to use the nasa log and have a nasa.gov url is good [21 Feb 07 13:30] * withak * s/log/logo [21 Feb 07 13:30] * T_Servo * Selar: Shapefille support is the hot potato [21 Feb 07 13:30] * stepman * track 1.4.1 as a JIRA issue and dump the things we decide on for that release in there [21 Feb 07 13:30] * woozoom * doesn't have to be binary decision. they could endorse what WW.net 'could' be. (steps off soapbox) [21 Feb 07 13:30] < mazop has left [21 Feb 07 13:30] * withak * and they serve the majority of the data too [21 Feb 07 13:30] * T_Servo * stepman: Yea, will do that. But we need a solid consensus to make sure everything and the kitchin sink isn;t added [21 Feb 07 13:30] * stepman * and flame people who commit things that aren't relevant to one of the 1.4.1 issues :) [21 Feb 07 13:31] * Bull_[UK] * I'd say more than 1% community for 1.4 [21 Feb 07 13:31] * Bull_[UK] * ut original code is mainly nasa [21 Feb 07 13:32] * T_Servo * I think the two biggest items we have are kml and shapefiles [21 Feb 07 13:32] * T_Servo * third is step's DL code [21 Feb 07 13:32] * Selar * and easy documentation [21 Feb 07 13:32] > fiveofoh has joined [21 Feb 07 13:32] * T_Servo * Selar: I am working on that :) [21 Feb 07 13:32] * stepman maintains that Vista support is also a big ticket [21 Feb 07 13:32] * Selar * T_Servo: and I will help you :) [21 Feb 07 13:33] * T_Servo * stepman: True, but still waiting to hear back from MS on a better fix [21 Feb 07 13:33] * withak * what is next on agenda? [21 Feb 07 13:33] * Bull_[UK] * ok so who is interested on doing shp improvements? [21 Feb 07 13:34] * withak * i tried making them vectors but it wasn't much more efficient that the tiles in memory :) [21 Feb 07 13:34] * Bull_[UK] * we have an agenda? oh yeah ;) [21 Feb 07 13:35] * Bull_[UK] * T_Servo what improvements are wanted? [21 Feb 07 13:35] * T_Servo * if we can get KML and Spafeiles done as the top items, we will make a lot of people happy [21 Feb 07 13:36] * T_Servo * http://rafb.net/p/ABmqeD44.html [21 Feb 07 13:36] * T_Servo * got this today [21 Feb 07 13:36] * Bull_[UK] * yeah kml is easyish, but shp? speed and.... [21 Feb 07 13:37] * T_Servo * good idea of what most people would like to have [21 Feb 07 13:37] * rghosh1 * http://www.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?ProjectName=SharpMap has a shape file loader [21 Feb 07 13:37] * rghosh1 * NetTopologySuite uses it too [21 Feb 07 13:38] * rghosh1 * performance issues might be resolved by using a QuadTileSet instead of a list for renderable objects, also available in NTS [21 Feb 07 13:38] * rghosh1 * Shit that's QuadTree not QuadTileSet [21 Feb 07 13:38] > Llynix has joined [21 Feb 07 13:38] ! ChanServ sets mode +o Llynix [21 Feb 07 13:38] > fiveofo1 has joined [21 Feb 07 13:39] * withak * all the stuff that guy in T_Servo's email wants can be done already [21 Feb 07 13:39] * withak * he just wants someone to gather all the information/data in one place for him [21 Feb 07 13:40] * T_Servo * ok [21 Feb 07 13:40] * withak * he should pay someone to set him up a wms [21 Feb 07 13:40] * stepman * that it can be done doesn't mean it is easy enough for non-experts [21 Feb 07 13:40] * woozoom * he also mentions functionality that would make WW a lot more useable to the general public (private also:) [21 Feb 07 13:41] * Bull_[UK] * yup [21 Feb 07 13:41] * stepman * he mentions biologists and guys like that using the tool. [21 Feb 07 13:41] * woozoom * needs it in unconnected locations so no WMS. [21 Feb 07 13:41] * stepman * i don't see a forester setting up a WMS. [21 Feb 07 13:42] * withak * a local wms [21 Feb 07 13:42] * woozoom * also, edu applications need cross platform. [21 Feb 07 13:42] * withak * much easier to style things that way [21 Feb 07 13:42] < fiveofoh has disconnected (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) [21 Feb 07 13:42] * withak * compared to relying on WW to do it [21 Feb 07 13:42] * woozoom * WMS plugin :) ? [21 Feb 07 13:42] * withak * the only thing he mentions that you can't do yet is retrieve feature info [21 Feb 07 13:42] * stepman * the implementation details don't matter, but it must present itself to the user as one simple to use package [21 Feb 07 13:43] * Bull_[UK] * shp->wms plugin [21 Feb 07 13:43] * Selar * it would be nice to get a set of objectives from us and our users that we can prioritize our development around [21 Feb 07 13:43] * stepman * if that means setting up a local WMS, fine. [21 Feb 07 13:43] * withak * styling vector maps is something that there are many other tools for [21 Feb 07 13:43] * T_Servo * a hook into qgis [21 Feb 07 13:43] * Bull_[UK] * ww could auto set up a mini-wms from a plugin [21 Feb 07 13:43] > fiveofoh has joined [21 Feb 07 13:44] * stepman * sounds like a 1.5 or 2.0 project :) [21 Feb 07 13:44] * Bull_[UK] * hehe [21 Feb 07 13:44] * Bull_[UK] * or SoC [21 Feb 07 13:44] * stepman * or that, yes. [21 Feb 07 13:45] * woozoom * WW 2.0 could reallybe 'all that' [21 Feb 07 13:45] * stepman * woozoom: if that's the goal, it is even more important to manage (human) resources very well [21 Feb 07 13:45] * withak * it also seems like that guy waiting on an OS project to provide him with a tool he needs may no be the best business decision :) [21 Feb 07 13:46] * Selar * it'd also be neat to separate the 2.0 feature set from the 1.4.x's [21 Feb 07 13:46] * stepman * you need a few guys working exclusively on 2.0, and enough others to keep the rest of the project going [21 Feb 07 13:46] * woozoom * from the mail: I've dumped about $100,000 of my own money into what we have built to date [21 Feb 07 13:46] * withak * yeah, 2.0 probably wouldn't be possible unless someone (or more) working full-tim turned up [21 Feb 07 13:47] * woozoom * what would what has been mentioned so far cost? vs opening an entirely new industry (.edu and commercial applications plus mac crowd) [21 Feb 07 13:49] * stepman * what do you mean [21 Feb 07 13:49] * stepman * the things we've been talking about? [21 Feb 07 13:49] * stepman * including OGL? [21 Feb 07 13:50] * withak * rghosh1: shapefiles are all rasterized and tiled right now [21 Feb 07 13:50] * withak * tiled in memory [21 Feb 07 13:50] * woozoom * seems like we're talking nickels and dimes when real utility and need is just sitting around looking at GE or waiting on old promises. [21 Feb 07 13:50] * withak * from WW's point of view a shapefile layer is a QTS [21 Feb 07 13:51] * rghosh1 * ah but you said you had worked on a vector version? [21 Feb 07 13:51] * withak * that was just a plugin that turned out to be about as slow as the rasterized way of loading [21 Feb 07 13:51] * woozoom * prettier? [21 Feb 07 13:51] * withak * woozoom: real utility and need takes time and effort [21 Feb 07 13:52] * woozoom * i know.. [21 Feb 07 13:52] * rghosh1 * withak: so for that one, [21 Feb 07 13:52] * rghosh1 * - could a quadtree have improved performance? [21 Feb 07 13:52] * rghosh1 * - was a simplified vector image displayed when the view was zoomed out, [21 Feb 07 13:52] * stepman * it's hard to render a lot of vectors efficiently. [21 Feb 07 13:52] * rghosh1 * stepman: hence the simplified vector image, available in some data sets [21 Feb 07 13:53] * withak * rghosh1: i don'tk now, someone who knows more than that stuff than me would have to try [21 Feb 07 13:53] * rghosh1 * cool just asking [21 Feb 07 13:54] * stepman * quadtree would help cull things you don't need to render [21 Feb 07 13:55] * rghosh1 * i'm not sure what if any library has a usable automated vector "simplifier" [21 Feb 07 13:55] * stepman * but the most important thing would be to have things resident on the GPU and render as much as possible in one swoop [21 Feb 07 13:56] * rghosh1 * stepman: makes sense, i guess that's why some datasets provide reduced or simplified "aliases" for the data [21 Feb 07 13:56] * withak * so what else is on the agenda? [21 Feb 07 13:56] * rghosh1 * i'm thinking of some boundary data set, can't remember which one, as an example [21 Feb 07 13:56] * withak * where is Bull_[UK]'s gavel? [21 Feb 07 13:56] * rghosh1 * lol [21 Feb 07 13:57] * Bull_[UK] * US-USDA/NAIP data in WW [21 Feb 07 13:58] * Selar * hmm, in a way, i think woozoom is right. details for shp can be worked out later, too :) [21 Feb 07 13:58] * Selar * who put that on there, Bull_[UK]? [21 Feb 07 13:58] * Bull_[UK] * no idea [21 Feb 07 13:58] * Bull_[UK] * lol [21 Feb 07 13:58] * Selar * was that from Patrick's request to help wildlantint? [21 Feb 07 13:58] * woozoom * 1M is good anywhere it came from [21 Feb 07 13:58] * Bull_[UK] * but FEF still cant process until 45 gets back [21 Feb 07 13:59] * Selar * since my "day job" is at the USDA, i may be able to help out with that [21 Feb 07 13:59] < fiveofo1 has disconnected (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [21 Feb 07 13:59] * Bull_[UK] * cool [21 Feb 07 13:59] * Selar * but my opinion on it is that it's an "ease of data importing" issue which goes along with refinements to 1.4.x [21 Feb 07 13:59] * Bull_[UK] * yeah [21 Feb 07 14:00] * withak * the user isn't going to ever have to handle a data set that large [21 Feb 07 14:00] < fiveofoh has left [21 Feb 07 14:00] * Selar * for that specific user, i don't think so, either, wi [21 Feb 07 14:00] * Selar * s/wi/withak [21 Feb 07 14:00] > T_Servo[II] has joined [21 Feb 07 14:01] * Selar * (he's got access to nevada naip by county, approx 2gb files) [21 Feb 07 14:02] * Selar * i'm not really sure what to say about that other than "more documentation" [21 Feb 07 14:02] * woozoom * each! [21 Feb 07 14:02] * woozoom * Idaho too [21 Feb 07 14:02] * nhv * fyi in ossimPlanet_QT you can drag and drop most any georefed image and shapefiles GML etc  and it will appear on the Globe [21 Feb 07 14:02] * nhv * I think WW could use a similar feature [21 Feb 07 14:02] * woozoom * OSSIMPlanet plugin! [21 Feb 07 14:02] * nhv * it is not that hard to do [21 Feb 07 14:03] < T_Servo has disconnected (Nick collision from services.) [21 Feb 07 14:03] ^ T_Servo[II] is now known as T_Servo [21 Feb 07 14:03] * woozoom * heh [21 Feb 07 14:03] * withak * that's what i want the file -> Load dialog to do [21 Feb 07 14:03] * Selar * that'd be a great feature [21 Feb 07 14:03] * Selar * someone's making a list, right? :) [21 Feb 07 14:03] * withak * http://www.worldwindcentral.com/wiki/World_Wind_1.4.1_Notes [21 Feb 07 14:04] * withak * already did :) [21 Feb 07 14:04] * withak * towards the bottom [21 Feb 07 14:04] * nhv * well one could put a WW like frontend on top of libOssimPlanet :-) [21 Feb 07 14:04] * nhv * we are currently trying to come up with an API [21 Feb 07 14:04] * Bull_[UK] * d&d is easy, shock did it for kml iirc [21 Feb 07 14:05] * Selar * nice, withak [21 Feb 07 14:05] * Bull_[UK] * cool [21 Feb 07 14:05] * nhv * if we had a document of desired features in the API  we might implement them [21 Feb 07 14:05] * woozoom * wow_ eyes glazed over... nvh has blown my mind. [21 Feb 07 14:05] * Bull_[UK] * yeah [21 Feb 07 14:05] * withak * yeah d&d isn't a problem once the actual file loading code is there [21 Feb 07 14:06] * nhv * Planet will communicate to the 'outside world'  thru a socket interface [21 Feb 07 14:06] * nhv * so it is very loosley coupled to the front end [21 Feb 07 14:07] * Selar * bah, forgot my wiki pwd [21 Feb 07 14:07] * Bull_[UK] * so ogl could be ww ui on toof ossim [21 Feb 07 14:07] * Bull_[UK] * :) [21 Feb 07 14:07] * Bull_[UK] * top of* [21 Feb 07 14:08] * nhv * UI could be anything C#  JavaScript  Python C  etc [21 Feb 07 14:08] * woozoom * ~pupils regaining shape~ thanks Bull. [21 Feb 07 14:08] * woozoom * nhv: and plug support? [21 Feb 07 14:09] * Bull_[UK] is out of his depth but likes the idea of using ossim stuff [21 Feb 07 14:09] * nhv * we have our own plugin system [21 Feb 07 14:09] * nhv * but yes   plugin architecture is core to OSSIM [21 Feb 07 14:10] * nhv * sensor models, data types, algorithms etc can all be pugins [21 Feb 07 14:10] * withak * make a .net control out of it and it can just replace worldwindow in the gui :) [21 Feb 07 14:11] * nhv * or just pass an OGL surface to OSSIM for it to draw into [21 Feb 07 14:11] * nhv * from any app [21 Feb 07 14:11] * rghosh1 * i've done that with tao in .NET before, works fine [21 Feb 07 14:12] * nhv * cool [21 Feb 07 14:15] * stepman * *ping* [21 Feb 07 14:16] * stepman * i suppose the silence means that there isn't anything important left on the agenda :) [21 Feb 07 14:16] * withak * we can't leave until Bull_[UK] bangs the gavel [21 Feb 07 14:16] * woozoom * wiping sweat from palms. instant OGL. pretty appealing. [21 Feb 07 14:16] * Bull_[UK] * lol [21 Feb 07 14:16] * Bull_[UK] bangs [21 Feb 07 14:17] * withak * refreshments in the hallway [21 Feb 07 14:18] < rghosh1 has left [21 Feb 07 14:19] * stepman * lies! nobody in #worldwind-hallway! [21 Feb 07 14:19] * stepman goes home, without refreshments :( [21 Feb 07 14:20] < stepman has left [21 Feb 07 14:23] < nhv has left [21 Feb 07 14:23] < withak has left ("bye") [21 Feb 07 14:23] * woozoom * outie! [21 Feb 07 14:23] < T_Servo has left [21 Feb 07 14:26] < Selar has left [21 Feb 07 14:28] < dumdumhead has disconnected ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") [21 Feb 07 14:42] < Llynix has left [21 Feb 07 14:55] < m_k has disconnected